Counterstamps 20 Heller German East Africa

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navada51
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Counterstamps 20 Heller German East Africa

#1 Mensagem por navada51 » segunda mar 19, 2012 12:13 pm

Hello there,

first of all I have to admit because I can't speak Portuguese, nor I can understand :(
Though, I hope you can help me...

I am writing a paper about the emergeny mint in Tabora (German East Africa) which was established in 1915/1916. There were minted 20 Heller coins in brass and copper. Some of these appear with a counterstamp "PM" (without crown) and "M", respectively.

In a German forum, it is said that these counterstamps were not authentic because the 20 Heller were issued too late. By refering two decrees (5th of January, 1899 and 19th of January, 1899) it was said that silver coins circulating in Mozambique have to bear a counterstamp to become legal tender within Mozambique. Since the "PM" stamp was under the reign of Carlos I, all coins issued after 1895 couldn't show such a counterstamp. However, I am not in line with such a theory. The appearance of the single "M" onto these coins could not be explained at all!

So, to make things easy, I may summarize my need for information in clear questions.

1) In order to cite properly: In which original publication I can find the decree of 5th of January, 1899 and 19th of January, 1899, respectively.

2) What did these decrees say in English at all?
Aviso da Junta da Fazenda de 5 de Janeiro de 1889 (Auszug aus der Verordnung).
...avisado por este meio todos os individuas que possuam pesos austriacos denominados Marias Therezas [MTT] a apresenta-los n´esta repaticao dentro do prazo de 20 dias contados desde a publicacao d´este Boletim Official e nas reparticoes de Fazenda dos districtos da Provincia no referido prazo de 20 dias contados desde chegada do mismo Boletim, a fim se proceder ao seu carimbo continuando assim ter curso.
Aviso da Junta da Fazenda de 19 de Janeiro de 1889:
Nao podendo continuar-se a applicar aos pesos denominados Marias Therezas [MTT] existentes na capital, e ainda nao carimbados, o carimbo enviado de Lisboa, em virtude de se terem obliterado os punccoes que a Exma. Junta da Fazenda foram remitidos pelo Ministerio da Marinha e Ultramar, e nao sendo possivel fazer-se aqui o cunho exatamente egual: a mesma Exma. Junta da Fazenda, previne o publico de que os pesos de ora avante serao carimbados com as letras PM ficando os mesmos pesos validos para a circulacao como os anteriormente marcados com as mesmas letras e a corao real.

3) So far, my understanding of the topic may be as following: As the punches exists also after 1895 you could easily use these punches to stamp onto every coin circulating in Mosambique in the year 1916 and thereafter. So, the stamps should be located in Mosambique.

4) Who stamped the coins? The authorities? Were it legalized by a decree?

5) When were they stamped? Whenever a coin crossed the border of Mosambique? Or were the coins collected (by whom?) and than counterstamped in a serial run?

6) How long last the counterstamped coins as legal tender in Mosambique?

7) Where came the single "M" counterstamp from? Any information possible?

8) It is said that just silver coins were counterstamped. But 20 Heller in brass shows also counterstamps. Could it be possible in war times also?

I am again sorry that I can't post it in your native language. I also can speak in German, Espanol (a bit) and Turkish (a bit) if it willl be appreciated well...

Thanks,

navada51



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Vítor Madeira
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Re: Counterstamps 20 Heller German East Africa

#2 Mensagem por Vítor Madeira » segunda mar 19, 2012 11:21 pm

Hi,

Welcome to our Forum. I personally don't know of any 20 heller coins counterstamped to circulate in Mozambique. One thing I can tell you is that there are many faked counterstamps on coins pretending to have circulated in the Portuguese Colonies.

There is one thing I can suggest: try and put come photos of the coin/s as we have some experts on counterstamps and if they are fakes we can rule them out.


Best regards
Cumprimentos


Vítor Madeira

navada51
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Re: Counterstamps 20 Heller German East Africa

#3 Mensagem por navada51 » terça mar 20, 2012 8:31 pm

Hello Vítor Madeira,

thanks a lot for your answer. Unfortunately, I have no real coins at hand. But I've made a photo of the coins in an catalogue. I think it's quite impossible to say if the counterstamps are faked on these coins because of the bad quality of the pics. Anyway, one can have a look how the stamps looks like:

http://www.navada.de/M.jpg
http://www.navada.de/PM.JPG

My basic question is: may it possible that there is a REAL counterstamp on 20 Heller coins, refering to the decrees? (has anybody a translation for me?)

The "PM" is said to be quite rare, to my knowledge just two are described.

Thanks again :)

navada

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Re: Counterstamps 20 Heller German East Africa

#4 Mensagem por Vítor Madeira » quarta mar 21, 2012 1:04 pm

Bom dia,

Alguém conhece estas moedas? As photos são de muito má qualidade, foram tiradas directamente de um catálogo antigo.

Imagem
Imagem

Este membro anda a fazer um estudo sobre amoedação de emergência em Africa Este.
Deseja saber se há alguma possibilidade de tais moedas terem circulado em Moçambique.
As moedas são de 20 Heller e os carimbos (M e PM) são um pouco primitivos (duvidosos).

Se por acaso tais moedas circularam na nossa colónia, seria possível obter uma transcrição do respectivo Decreto-Lei?
Cumprimentos


Vítor Madeira

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MiguelCosta
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Re: Counterstamps 20 Heller German East Africa

#5 Mensagem por MiguelCosta » quarta mar 21, 2012 3:21 pm

Encontrei aqui uma moeda dessas carimbada, mas não sei se circulou ou não em moçambique.
deixo aqui o link.

https://www.muenzauktion.com/fenzl/item ... =EUR&psid=

ImagemVer imagem grande

ImagemVer imagem grande

Miguel Costa
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Re: Counterstamps 20 Heller German East Africa

#6 Mensagem por jardineiro » quarta mar 21, 2012 3:41 pm

Essas moedas são da antiga Tanzania,(German East Africa) colonia alemã, já tive algumas, neste momento só tenho rupias , não tenho conhecimento que os heller tenham circulado em Moçambique.
R & F

navada51
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Re: Counterstamps 20 Heller German East Africa

#7 Mensagem por navada51 » quarta mar 21, 2012 9:53 pm

@Vítor Madeira:
Many many thanks for your translation both for the portuguese --> english translation AND the english --> portuguese translation of my posting. As I understand correct the punch was shipped to Mozambique and the citizens have to hand out the MTT to the treasure offices within 20 days. Because the stamp was broken early after use, they made a new one in Mozambique. As there were other coins counterstamped as well (eg indian rupee) I think the decree was extended to silver coins at all. And if I go further with theory, in later days they will use other punches as well.

@MiguelCosta:
thanks a lot for your pictures. The 2nd stamp is new for me, the "M" looks quite different! This is a great find! Did you say you don't know if these coins had circulate in Mozambique?

Very interesting story.... I hope we can put more light on it :)

Best wishes,
Muito obrigado!
navada

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Re: Counterstamps 20 Heller German East Africa

#8 Mensagem por navada51 » sexta abr 06, 2012 7:23 pm

Here are some more pics of counterstamped coins. Wonder how many punched were used. Maybe fakes.

http://www.zeno.ru/showgallery.php?cat=7155

Best wishes,
navada

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tm1950
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Re: Counterstamps 20 Heller German East Africa

#9 Mensagem por tm1950 » terça abr 10, 2012 11:12 am

Da obra "Catálogo Descritivo das Moedas Portuguesas - Museu Numismático Português", INCM, 1990, recolhi a seguinte informação:

Imagem

Imagem

Imagem

Imagem
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Re: Counterstamps 20 Heller German East Africa

#10 Mensagem por tm1950 » terça abr 10, 2012 11:19 am

Exemplos de carimbo PM coroado e sem coroa:

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Fonte: "Emissões de Papel Moeda do BNU para Moçambique 1877-1973"
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